So this was the original answer I’d written for the comment left on my Feeding the Troll post.
It’s no secret that many within the Maledom and the vanilla world are less than accepting of male submission. Attitudes range from indifferent disinterest to impassioned disgust.
The article I linked to described one Dom who curled his lip at a male submissive, and said, “I want to say, ‘be a man!'”
And again, my response to this is the same as my response to BBWs who deal with those who look down on them: who the fuck cares?
But when you look at where this attitude comes from, you realize that the mindset is so much more legitimately harmful than just one guy being a judgey asshole.
Now, I will give some men a bit of a pass on this, because in a few very rare cases, there is actually a legitimate reason for the discomfort. I know this because I feel the exact same discomfort in seeing a woman dominated by a man (and while I know intellectually that submissive women consent to and enjoy sessions, and can handle seeing a BDSM session with a male Dom and female sub, to this day, I still cannot watch male-on-female rape fantasies, or even rape scenes in movies).
I mean, trauma can happen to literally anyone, man or woman, Dominant or submissive. No one is immune. And if a male Dom has experienced trauma at some point in his life, then yeah, I can give him a pass for being uncomfortable with watching it.
Being uncomfortable with watching it and feeling that a submissive man is “letting their team down,” however, are two very, very different things. And come from two very, very different places.
First of all, it feeds into toxic masculinity, which actively harms all men, across all ages, social, economic, and religious backgrounds, and all races.
I’m actually serious. We’re only just discovering that men are more prone to depression, simply because until only very recently, all the data we had was on diagnoses of depression. And since men aren’t allowed to have feelings, of course they’re not allowed to acknowledge depression, much less get it diagnosed and treated.
Men are literally three times more likely to commit suicide than women. In no small part because you can’t have feelings and be a “real man.”
But the problem is that men are biological human beings. Biological human beings have human brains, and human brains produce strong emotions, whether those human beings have a penis or a vagina (or both, or neither).
Toxic masculinity is such a fitting name. It’s seriously toxic. It is literally killing men. It is poisoning them from the inside out, and actually killing them.
What’s more, it’s an attack against femininity, as well as masculinity. Because to these people, FemDom situations are seen as, at best, a joke, and at worst, completely unrealistic because of the belief that a woman could never be capable of leading a man. And for a man to allow such an inferior being to be in a position of authority over him shows a failure as a man.
But this mindset that submissive men “aren’t real men” demeans women, too. Because it feeds into that mindset that dominance=masculinity, and submission=femininity.
Which is where you get the idiots like the one who wrote that message, telling me that I’m not a “real woman” because I’m not submissive, and Star isn’t a “real woman” because she doesn’t want a Dominant man.
It’s an attack against masculinity, yes, and a fucking brutal and archaic one, but it’s also seen as a gender stereotype, in which submission is a feminine trait and femininity is inherently inferior to masculinity.
Which is not exclusive to BDSM, by the way. It’s exactly why my daughter is allowed to and encouraged to like “boy” things. People are proud of her when she talks about Superman, or how much she likes watching The Avengers or Deadpool (yeah, I know, I know. Don’t feel like getting into the why-I-let-my-5-year-old-watch-Deadpool discussion right now).
My best friend has a son, whom I adore. And it broke my heart when my friend told her preschool-age son he couldn’t have a babydoll that he wanted.
I said to her, somewhat angrily, “What are you worried about? That he’ll grow up and want to be a dad? The unmitigated horror!”
She said, “No, it’s not that. Everywhere he goes, he’ll be ridiculed if he carries a doll around. What’ll happen when he goes to school and the kids find out he has a doll?”
And I mean, I was just so heartbroken. She’s teaching her son that femininity is shameful. That a real man, a strong man, must not want or like or appreciate anything even remotely feminine. Otherwise, he is not a real man.
My daughter is allowed to like cars, and superheroes, and dinosaurs, and the color blue (and dark blue is actually her favorite color). She is allowed to like masculine things, and take pride in the fact that she likes masculine things.
My friend’s son is not allowed to like dolls, or kitchen sets (despite the fact that the vast majority of professional chefs are men, and it’s very much a male-dominated field), or princesses, or the color pink. He is not allowed to like feminine things, and if he does, it is shameful.
Has no one wondered why that is?
Do any of you in the US remember how the entire country went fucking ballistic when a magazine showed a picture of a mother and young son, and the boy’s fingernails were painted?
Everyone thought it was just terrible to allow a happy little boy to express himself howeverthefuck he wants, whether it’s “boy” or “girl” stuff.
God forbid a little boy has the inner strength to tell society, “Fuck off, I’m doing what I want to do.”
We can’t have boys growing up to be strong men who are confident and sure of themselves, and accepting of themselves as well as other people who may not fit the current societal norms. That’s just unacceptable.
We need sheep.
Seriously, those people disgust me. Because they’re not going ballistic when a girl does something masculine. Only when a boy does something feminine.
And none of them have stopped to think why.
Wanna know why? I’ll tell you why.
It’s because you think femininity is shameful. Pretty it up all you want, you can’t hide the truth. You don’t mind women exhibiting masculine behaviors because masculinity is seen as a positive thing, and the girl who shows masculine behaviors is seen as “strong,” and “tough,” and “just fucking great.”
Because she is rising above the “inferiority” of femininity and making herself better. That’s why you see the car mechanics girls and the karate girls and the chess genius girls on the talk shows. They’re rising above their station, and they’re worthy of attention.
You never see feminine little girls get that kind of attention. You never see the youtube videos of the little girl who sews intricate princess dresses from scratch go viral the way the videos of the little girl football player who runs circles around the boys do. You never see the little girl with incredible knowledge of fashion get on the talk shows the way the black-belt karate girls do.
Because femininity is shameful. It’s tolerated in girls, because I mean, they’re girls. Most of them can’t be expected to rise above their biology.
So we accept it in girls.
We sure as hell don’t encourage it or celebrate it the way we do masculinity, though.
But for boys, it’s even worse. Because they had the great fortune to be born male, they’re held to higher expectations. Masculinity isn’t a “bonus” for them, that makes everyone fawn over them the way they fawn over girls. It’s an expectation.
It’s special when a girl rises from the inferiority of feminine behavior. It’s expected for a boy to do it. Because he’s better than that. Because he’s a boy.
And should he lower himself by wanting to exhibit feminine behaviors, then he’s confused, or just going through a phase, or maybe there’s something developmentally wrong with him.
But if a parent actually allows and encourages that kind of weakness in a boy? Especially a father???
It’s just unspeakable. It’s a father’s job to teach his son how to be a man. It’s a father’s job to teach him that he isn’t allowed to like feminine things, because he’s a man, and men are above something as shameful and weak as femininity. It’s a father’s job to teach his son that femininity is something to be ashamed of, and even a hint of any sort of feminine behavior will make him less of a man.
It’s a father’s job to teach his son how to be a real man. And create another generation of sexist, misogynistic pigs.
Go ahead, tell me I’m wrong. If any of my followers buy into that stupid shit, that boys shouldn’t be allowed to be feminine, go ahead. Tell me your reasons. Tell me how you pretty it up, how you convince yourself that you’re not a sexist, misogynistic pig.
My best friend is no exception. Because she is perpetuating the idea that femininity in a man is shameful, and her son must hide these desires and impulses (such as a desire to be a parent. I mean, the horror of a little boy fantasizing about growing up and protecting and caring for his child, and being a good father! It’s the stuff of nightmares, and it’ll destroy society as we know it), and that such things are worthy of ridicule. She is actively teaching her son that femininity, and all feminine roles and behaviors (such as child-rearing), is something to be tolerated (but not celebrated) in a woman, and looked down upon in a man.
Whatever her reasons are, when you boil it down, that’s what you have. She views femininity in her son as shameful, so she must protect him from having those shameful attitudes and behaviors discovered.
It’s because, regardless of whether you’re a boy or girl, masculinity is seen as a positive thing, while femininity is seen as something to be ashamed of.
And when you add that attitude to D/s, you see the exact same thing. To these people, submission is seen as feminine, and feminine = inferior.
I mean, the entire thought process is wrong, because Dominance and submission are not inherently masculine or feminine. One has literally nothing to do with the other. But that’s a different argument.
So I mean, the Dom mentioned in the article, who buys into this kind of attitude, is actively harming both men and women. Including the women he may own, associate with, or play with. Because how can you respect someone you see as inferior? How can you care about, protect, and love someone you think could never be on your level?
And we cannot deny the strong probability that much of the discomfort at seeing a submissive man comes from the same place as the discomfort of seeing a female Dominant: they see it as a threat to their own masculinity.
In those cases, the men are not confident enough in who they are. They are afraid of and intimidated by strong women, and unable to confront and accept their fear, so they push it off on others. They choose to believe that only weak men can be submissive.
Because that’s easier to accept than being confronted by the fact that submissive men don’t share those insecurities, and that submissive men are confident enough and sure enough about who they are, that they’re not intimidated by strong, powerful women. They can hold their own with such women. They can meet her strength and intensity fearlessly and without hesitation, while these “Doms” cannot.
And again, this is not something that is exclusive to BDSM.
And I also just want to take a moment to go on a tangent, because I haven’t seen anyone else notice this. But look at their body language. She’s got her leg crossed toward him, her shoulders rotated toward him, and is leaning toward him. Her hands are relaxed, there is space between her fingers, and she is looking directly at him, her head in a neutral position (she is neither leaning her head down, looking up at him, nor holding her head up, looking down at him).
Meanwhile, we see that the Child in Chief’s hands are together, his fingers close together, and pointing down. He is also subtly leaning away from her, his lips are tight, his head slightly lowered, and his eyes downcast.
And I want to take a minute to talk about what that means. Her body language conveys confidence, engagement and self assurance. The fact that she’s leaning toward him, while he leans away, is a display of dominance, most noted by just how much she leans toward him. She is displaying signs of feeling completely comfortable and sure of herself in his presence, while he is showing multiple signs of insecurity.
She is completely dominating this situation, and she knows it. The fact that her hands and fingers are relaxed shows that she’s comfortable and secure, and space between her fingers is a sign of dominance, confidence, and even a territorial attitude. She knows damn well that she intimidates the ever-loving fuck out of him, and she doesn’t have a single problem in the world with that.
But the most pronounced thing is the position of Prima Donald’s hands. That position is called “Steepling,” and when fingers are pointed upward or outward, is the single most obvious display of confidence and self assurance. So much so, that it’s the one position that doesn’t need to be taken in context with the rest of the body language.
His fingers, however, are pointed downward, and the steeple is upside down. This is one of the most obvious signs of insecurity, and even fear. When combined with the rest of his body language, it’s more than clear that he simply cannot handle her confident, dominating energy.
So I mean, that’s a relatively common thing. Insecure men are easily and often intimidated by strong women. Insecure male Dominants will act the same way the Jersey Shore reject acted in Chancellor Merkel’s presence: avoidance, belittlement, and attempts to push the insecurity and discomfort onto others.
Or perhaps they harbor their own submissive feelings, but lack the inner strength to break free from society’s expectations (which, as I will explain later, is more likely than you might think. Male submission is way more common than the average person realizes). Perhaps they resent submissive men for possessing the strength they lack. I’ve actually known a fair number of these men. They’re quite common.
They’re drawn to BDSM because they have those desires, they have those fantasies. But they are too weak to accept themselves, and societal norms dictate that they must be Dominant, because they’re men. So they fall into that mold.
They know it doesn’t fit, though. They know they’re unhappy, they know there’s something missing. And when they see a submissive man, and are confronted with that man’s ability to be himself, to feel comfortable in his submissive skin, and to feel fulfilled in that role, it breeds resentment.
And because they believe that submission=femininity and femininity=inferiority, so submission=inferiority, they are uncomfortable with the idea of a submissive man being stronger than they are, so they choose to warp their mindset to protect their ego, and see the submissive man as weak.
I’ve had the unimaginable honor (and it was an honor, just ask him yourself) of speaking to one of the more vocal of these assholes, a man here in town well known through all local groups. Everyone knows this guy’s name. Everyone knows what a psycho he and his cult members are.
And I was lucky enough to learn firsthand just how easily intimidated he is by any woman who is not a complete doormat, and how badly he handles feeling intimidated. His ego and his self image are so fragile, all I literally have to do in order to threaten him is exist. That, he sees as a personal threat to who he is. And when I politely but firmly refused to call him “Sir,” he just didn’t know how to handle it. The only thing he could think of to do was to get hostile.
But he’s one guy, and the group he runs is small.
His is one of the most well-known names in town, but he and his followers comprise a wholly insignificant percentage of the local community.
These people are not the majority. They’re just the loudest. And, like with pretty much every large group in the history of humankind, the loudest are usually the craziest 0.5% of any given population.
But because they’re the loudest, most assume that they speak for the majority.
And what’s more, submissive men are actually in high demand.
They’ve done studies and polls with vanilla straight women, and found that literally a quarter of them prefer a more submissive partner.
And relationships are significantly more successful when there is a clear power dynamic (although it doesn’t matter which partner has the power).
You will always have people who say that women are meant to be dominated, and that to deny that is to deny evolution. You’ll always have people who say shit like the stupid bitch said. But the numbers are consistent, and the numbers don’t lie.
This study looked at two samples of BDSM kinksters, one in California, and the other in the Netherlands. And there, they found some interesting things among women in liberal US culture, as opposed to Dutch culture (which I’m not saying is oppressive, I’m just saying that you don’t get much more socially liberal than California).
In both samples, the number of men who identified as exclusively submissive were about the same. 33% of Dutch men and 26% of American men identified as submissive.
Which in itself is a big deal, m’kay. When submissive men make up a quarter to a third of the BDSM population, it might be time to retire the stupid stigmas.
But they found that only 8% of Dutch women identified as Dominant, while 30% of American women identified as Dominant.
So that was interesting (but misleading, but I’ll get to that). And it showed that a significant number of men in the kink world are exclusively submissive.
There was another poll done with sexual fantasies that found something pretty interesting, as well. While more men entertained dominant fantasies than women, and relatively few women entertained Dominant fantasies at all, the number of men who entertained submissive fantasies was much higher than expected.
Men like the male-submissive fantasy more than the male-dominant fantasy; 66% of men have submissive fantasies at least half the time.
Well over half of men have these fantasies. Literally the majority, m’kay.
So why are they so badly ostracized?
You mentioned it yourself: The media. But mostly because people are sheep.
The media generally sucks, but you do have massive outlets like Cosmo Magazine writing multiple articles about pegging, about Femdom power dynamics, and about toxic masculinity in regards to sexual desires (like pegging, or wanting to be submissive).
And millions of women are reading these. I mean, granted, Cosmo’s audience is late teens and early twenties, so the already-established bigots aren’t seeing them, but it’s my experience that all you can really do with bigots is hope they don’t reproduce before they die, anyway.
You also have the Huffington Post, who published a very-watered-down-but-still-decent article about the stigma surrounding submissive men, and how we as a society need to stop judging them.
This article looks specifically at powerful men in positions of authority, and how such men often have these desires. They touch on the psychological effects of professional and social power, and how it tends to lead to a reduction of inhibitions and a decreased need for social conformity. It cites a couple of different studies that show statistics on powerful men who are sexually and/or romantically submissive, and how these men are less sexually inhibited, and also put less weight on current societal gender norms, in no small part because of the effects of power on the human mind.
So not all media is bad. And the more we speak out about male submission, the more we educate the public, the faster that stigma will fade.
Still, though, the single piece of advice I have for all submissive men who are unsure is to go to a munch.
I’m serious, and there’s a very real reason for it.
Because the very few men who actually do go to munches and events, depending on the group, are practically fucking celebrities. The first group Kazander and I joined was a mixed group, but mostly male Doms and female subs. There were 5 female Dommes who regularly attended.
Want to know how many male subs regularly attended? Including Kazander?
And he was always so popular among the Dommes. I mean, they all knew he was owned and never “tried anything” with him, they were all mostly awesome women. But he never wanted for women’s attention while he was there.
And don’t get me wrong, I adore my husband, but I can also admit that he is no Brad Pitt.
But try telling those Dommes that. Because it’s just that rare for a submissive man to come to a munch.
Groups that are exclusively Femdom do have a lot more male subs show up. But the vast majority are in their 60s or older. Which is awesome, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, and I’ve made some great friends with them, and have thoroughly enjoyed playing with one or two of them. They’re fantastic men.
But, while I was the youngest Domme in that group, it wasn’t by much. And as a 29-year-old Dominant who generally prefers men in the 40-50-ish age range, give or take a few years, I was just shit out of luck. The entire time I helped run the group, not a single sub under 55 ever showed up.
And there were quite a few Dommes in their 30s, who may have preferred a sub closer to their age. Can you imagine how popular a man in that age range would be if he went to one of those?
I’ve had a couple of male subs tell me that (again, it depends on the group. Some groups suck, some are awesome) it’s actually a huge ego boost to go to a munch. Even if it’s a mixed group and there’s just a handful of Dommes, chances are the vast majority of them either don’t have subs, or their subs never go with them.
We’ve all heard that stupid saying: For every Dominant woman, there are 100 submissive men.
And yeah, that’s true on the internet. Among the men who message a Domme wanting to know her bra size before her name, and asking her to talk down to them while they jerk off before asking how she’s doing.
And when you look at studies like the one above, citing 8% of Dominant women against 33% of submissive men, it can be misleading, and further the notion that there are significantly more submissive men than Dominant women.
I’d even say the 100/1 ratio is conservative. Based on the messages in my Twitter, email, Fet, and Facebook accounts in the last week, I’d venture that it’s actually closer to double that.
But I swear to you, that’s not even remotely true in real life.
The demand for submissive men is just laughably high. But because so many men see bullshit like this bitch’s comment, and think it’s the majority, they don’t go to munches. Or maybe they’ve had a bad experience in one group with a male Dom or female submissive, and allow that experience to color their perception.
They don’t go, and it’s so goddamn rare to see a Domme with a submissive man. For example, of all the Dommes I know of here in town, of all the women I’ve seen at the play parties and munches, and have spoken to, want to know how many have a collared male submissive?
Three. Including me, m’kay. That ratio of submissive men to Dominant women is not 100/1. I’d venture a guess that it’s closer to 1/100.
You don’t understand. They are nowhere to be found.
Both of the mixed groups I belong to, by the way, are nothing but respectful of submissive men. Kazander and I were married by a male Dom in one of those groups. Kazander and I have had enjoyable conversations with more than one male Dom in the other group. And one of Kazander’s really good friends is a submissive woman, who always asks where he is when I go to the play parties without him, and asks me to tell him she misses him.
That is the majority, okay. Even in most mixed groups. There are assholes in every group, but the vast majority of male Doms and female subs are completely normal people.
That is what you can expect.
Not psycho-bitch. Hell, the sheer level of craziness, and the novelty of such craziness, is why I decided to publicly humiliate her.
Dominant women are here. We’re at the munches, we’re at the play parties, and most of the time, we don’t have a sub of our own.
Because so many of them are just too ashamed to be seen with us. Because they hear the craziest 0.5% and think it’s representative of the majority. Because they buy into the bullshit.
We want you. We want you around. We’re going to treat you like a fucking king when you show up, because we want you around.
There are, at least in Vegas, wayyyy more than twice as many Dommes as there are submissive men. And from things I’ve been told, that seems to be about the norm across the country, with some exceptions.
So seriously, I know it’s easier said than done, but don’t let the psychos turn you off from who you are.
There are people who aren’t going to want you. There are people who aren’t going to respect you.
But there are so many who do.